Are Demons Real

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

It's me again, the awakener of old old posts.  Just wanted to chime in here with my feelings.

I was raised Catholic, but don't totally agree with everything the Church teaches; mainly it's insistence that all other Religions are wrong.  My personal belief is that ALL (well maybe not all, but most,) Religions are right, they just use different stories and names for the same "God" and pantheon.

While Demon may be a Catholic term, I don't restrict them to just the catholic religion, many religions have thier own versions of Demons and Evil Spirits.  Demon just happens to be the most popular term (and easiest to pronounce.)

"Evil" entities exist, I am sure of this.  Yet Karl had an excellent point about defining "evil."  Is a bear Evil when it kills to defend it's cub?  Is a shark in a feeding frenzy evil?  Some entities may be truly evil, others may be acting out of instincts we don't understand.  That doesn't make them any less dangerous.

[leslie]

Old post, but always a debatable subject. Nobody knows the truth, there are no experts; we can only go by experience or own personal beliefs.

My belief and experience is evil exists. If someone can be evil while they are alive (i.e. Manson, Dalmer), why wouldn't that carry over to the "after life". There is good and bad in this world. Though and hard to swallow, it is the obvious truth. Bears killing a person protecting a cub or acting out of the ordinary is not evil. Hilter brain washing millions and killing and torturing millions... now that is evil.

[Brian Johnson]

Very good points, guys.

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

What I find troublesome is when I think about how many "crazy" people may be locked up in asylums.  I'm sure many are crazy, but there "probably" are also those who are either possesed or are being harassed by evil spirits.

[dwalters]

What I find troublesome is when I think about how many "crazy" people may be locked up in asylums.  I'm sure many are crazy, but there "probably" are also those who are either possesed or are being harassed by evil spirits.

Jen...this is RIGHT up your alley Care to grace us with some knowledge?

[TAPS Jen]

It's something I'd love to find a way to discern. Yes, I think that 99.9% of mentally ill, are mentally ill. (there aren't any more asylums, by the way and it practically takes an act of God to get someone admitted to a long term care facility)

Every so often, I run into a client ( I work primarily w. the homeless and jailed mentally ill) who I really just have to wonder about. The strongest of meds don't work, ECT ("shock" therapy) has little to no effect ( I know the controversy, but I've seen it work wonders when administered properly)

I have many clients who claim to be plagued by demons - a lot of people w. mental illness see and hear demons, shadows or will tell me they hear a demonic voice saying horrible things to them out of someone else's mouth (typically me, while in a therapy session - it takes a lot of work to get them to trust me enough to tell me when that is happening - but that's another story)

I had one woman who was so completely terrified she tried everything to kill herself to make the torment stop. The last time I saw her, it took 5 of us to keep all 100 lbs of her from jumping out a window. I know the human body can do amazing things, but 5 people struggling to hold back this tiny person? Another was a homeless woman I got called in to talk down from a corner of the CEILING of the shelter. It had to be at least 20ft up w/ nothing to climb that I could see. She just said "the demons put me up here." We had to calm her down enough to let the fire dept. help her down. (she kept growling and striking out at them)

Bad drug trip? Severe illness? You just don't know. I can't exactly turn to my boss and say I'd like to throw holy water at someone I suspect of having something more than a mental illness. It just doesn't fit inot a treatment plan!

I do believe in demons and angels. I do believe that people w. mental illness make a perfect target because at the end of the day - who would believe them?

[ttjoon]

As usual, excellent insight, Jen.

[leslie]

Very interesting job you have there, Jen. Interesting, challenging and excellent profession. I am sure you see and hear things that the average person will never see or deal with. Do you ever feel like you take the energy home with you? I have heard therapist, psychologists (etc.) sometimes have to meditate before they enter or leave their office so they don't take with them negative energy from patients. Is this true? Have you ever experienced this?

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

Wow Jen, thanks for the words of experiance.  It always scares me that if I hadn't learned to shut my mouth I could have ended up locked up somewhere.  Your story about the lady found in the corner of the ceiling is extremely wild, I think that would have warrented some Holy Water at the least.

[TAPS Jen]

Leslie - Yeah, it took me a long time to learn to "leave it at the door."  Before I got sick, I would go for a very long, very hilly run before going home. Lots of weekend hikes. I also played roller derby - that helped! Now that the tumors -n-bad stuff are gone, I'm determined to get back into running. Nothing cleared my head more.

I'm too much of a wise-ass for meditation. They just started a meditation group for staff  at my clinic - 60 minutes focusing on a raisin..all I could think of was "I heard it through the grapevine." and had to crack jokes the whole way through. Needless to say, I was not helpful in achieving a state of "zen."  :

A lot of us will vent w/ each other and that helps. I also have a great supervisor who knows when to give us "time outs" or keep us in the clinic for awhile. When it comes down to it, there are few other jobs that I would rather do.

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

Taking a side trip, I want to say that I don't really know you Jen, but I am glad that you are feeling better and are over your illness.  Also thank you for the job that you do.  Many "service" oriented jobs are high visiblity, like Police, Firefighters, and the Military; yet jobs like the one you do never get the recognition they deserve and they are just as important.

[TAPS Jen]

Aww, thanks!

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

Does PPI have their own Demonologist?  If so, I have some questions I would like to talk to them about.

[PPI Brian]

Here's an interesting article about Rome's Exorcist talking about discerning between demonic possession and mental illness:

http://www.zenit.org/article-22264?l=english

[TAPS Jen]

Good article Brian- thanks.

[ellie]

Last time I checked Brian Johnson was studding this topic. He might be ables to answer any questions.

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

Yea I have read a lot about it myself, was just wondering if you guys had anybody who actually had any actual experiance with them.

[johnny]

I've read a lot and heard lots of stories of such when I was a young teen, two books really did get my attention as they were about the us humans and how there is a world that we don't know where Angelics fight Demons all the time in protecting human kind. Very much in the frame of the demon legions and angelic hierarchy.  I wish I could remember the two titles, they were really really good reads.

[Suzannah]

Are demons real?

It depends on who you ask.  A modern neo-pagan who does not believe in "the Devil" might say "not".
Generally, christians will say yes, they are real.
Generally, muslims will say they are real.
An atheist will tell you that they don't exist at all.  An agnostic will say "Maybe".  A Hindu will say that evil spirits are possible.
A Buddhist will probably tell you that no, they are not "real".

If you are asking for personal opinions, you already have four pages of them.  But I am going to go on record and say :
As a rational human being I would like to see evidence.  As an Eastern Orthodox Christian who has had paranormal experiences, I believe that yes, they are real.

[dwalters]

Here's your proof!









Granted, these are not "demons" per say, but they are persuaded by something evil in nature...some may call it "insanity" but that's a sad excuse in my book.

The only "proof" that I can give to non-believers is this.
You do not know everything!
The sad thing is that we can't "prove" anything to anyone who does not believe. The reality is that there is an afterlife and not all dogs go to heaven. I'm not asking anyone else to believe, they'll see for themselves.

[ttjoon]

Wow, Dave.  You nailed it.

[Suzannah]

Here's your proof!



Granted, these are not "demons" per say, but they are persuaded by something evil in nature...some may call it "insanity" but that's a sad excuse in my book.

Psychiatrists and indeed, the world at large, are fond of saying that "possessed" people are just misdiagnosed and are mentally ill.  If that is true, then the reverse is equally possible.  Psychiatry is the new religion of the masses.  Psychologists, counselors and psychiatrists are given guru status and what they say is "gospel truth".  I am certainly not saying that they don't serve a valuable function or that they are not needed.  I am saying that they are not gods and we should quit worshipping at their altars. 

The only "proof" that I can give to non-believers is this.
You do not know everything!
The sad thing is that we can't "prove" anything to anyone who does not believe. The reality is that there is an afterlife and not all dogs go to heaven. I'm not asking anyone else to believe, they'll see for themselves.

To borrow a phrase from my Protestant friends, "Amen brother".



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[TAPS Jen]

I disagree Suzannah. There are quite a few mental health professionals -myself included - who believe in demons and the possibility of possession. Possession is an extremely rare occurance. Mental illness, unfortunately, is not. Most religious organizations will require that the mental health of an individual is evaluated during an investigation of an alleged demonic possession. Quite often, the person's suffering is alleviated w. meds and therapy. If it comes down to mental illness or a true possession, the odds are that it will be a mental illness and it is an avenue that any responsible investigator would look at and attempt to rule out.

Psychology, as well as paranormal study are both very inexact sciences w. a whole lot of variables. I think most people on both sides are just trying to do the best that they can to help as many people as they can.

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

Nice post Jen, what I think makes things even harder is that it's not just black or white either.  It's not like it's your either crazy or your possessed.  Possession normally works by wearing down an individual and breaking down their will to live.  It can possibly even drive somebody crazy or suicidal without actually ever possessing them. 

Then you have the fact that some experiences that some "crazy" people may be having may actually be some type of PSI experience.  It makes one big huge gray area that makes it all very hard to iron out the real truth.  While many mental health professionals may be open minded, I fear that many are not.  For example, as a child when I talked about some stuff, my parents thought something was wrong with me and took me to Dr's and such.  I fear that in todays world, I would have been medicated and such, I think that some prescriptions are given out much to easily to children these days.

[Suzannah]

Nice post Jen, what I think makes things even harder is that it's not just black or white either.  It's not like it's your either crazy or your possessed.  Possession normally works by wearing down an individual and breaking down their will to live.  It can possibly even drive somebody crazy or suicidal without actually ever possessing them. 

Then you have the fact that some experiences that some "crazy" people may be having may actually be some type of PSI experience.  It makes one big huge gray area that makes it all very hard to iron out the real truth.  While many mental health professionals may be open minded, I fear that many are not.  For example, as a child when I talked about some stuff, my parents thought something was wrong with me and took me to Dr's and such.  I fear that in todays world, I would have been medicated and such, I think that some prescriptions are given out much to easily to children these days.

Michael, I agree with you very much here.  You said it much better than I did. 

I disagree Suzannah. There are quite a few mental health professionals -myself included - who believe in demons and the possibility of possession. Possession is an extremely rare occurance. Mental illness, unfortunately, is not. Most religious organizations will require that the mental health of an individual is evaluated during an investigation of an alleged demonic possession. Quite often, the person's suffering is alleviated w. meds and therapy. If it comes down to mental illness or a true possession, the odds are that it will be a mental illness and it is an avenue that any responsible investigator would look at and attempt to rule out.

Psychology, as well as paranormal study are both very inexact sciences w. a whole lot of variables. I think most people on both sides are just trying to do the best that they can to help as many people as they can.

Jen, forgive me if I did not clarify my position. I actually agree with you but perhaps did not state my position fully.  In today's post modern, materialist world, "possession" does not exist as far as they are concerned and everyone is just "sick". You and professionals like you, are the exception rather than the rule (and God bless you for it, if I may add that as a personal aside.)   If it were not so, possession would be included in the DSM IV.   All I am saying is one is not necessarily exclusive of the other (they can also happen simultaneously in theory) and the polarization by many mental health professionals is a disservice to the victim.  Certainly many, if not most, conditions can alleviated by meds and therapy.  But alleviation does not equal eradication, especially in the extreme rare case of possession.  By the same token, exorcism does not always result in complete "wellness" for the victim and in most cases, takes a very, very long time. 

Additionally, it is my opinion, that popular culture gives guru status to the mental health profession which it does not deserve.  It always strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction to "organized religion".  Humanism, and Psychiatry in particular,  simply does not answer all questions.  I'm sure that my opinion makes for bad ju-ju in mixed professional company, but I am just a rebel I guess. 

[ttjoon]

Additionally, it is my opinion, that popular culture gives guru status to the mental health profession which it does not deserve.  It always strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction to "organized religion".  Humanism, and Psychiatry in particular,  simply does not answer all questions.  I'm sure that my opinion makes for bad ju-ju in mixed professional company, but I am just a rebel I guess. 

I think the only mental health professionals that are getting "Guru" status, are those idiots on television like Dr. Phil and the like.  You can only give someone "Guru" status if you are LOOKING for a Guru.  Mental Health Professionals that do what Jen does, day in and day out, are the REAL heroes.  These heroes are the unsung ones.  They are the ones that truly care and aren't trying to make a buck off of other people's suffering.  Unless you've been in that profession and walked in hers or anyone else's shoes in that vocation, you have no room to judge.  You can be a rebel all you want, but realize this: No one has all the answers and no one ever will.  Sorry...but MY Juju is in a bunch. 

[bellalaghoste]

demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

[ttjoon]

demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

VERY well put

[PPI Brian]

demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

How true.

[MichaelF (FPIE)]

demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

Actually that may be more real then you may think.  If individuals can create thoughtforms, apparitions and poltergeist phenomenon with their minds, what happens when groups collectively believe in something.  Does millions or billions of people belieiving in a certain religion actually make it real?  The same could be true of Demons, perhaps we actually "make" them as well.  Kind of a chicken or the egg scenario.