www.pacificparanormal.com

I belive that demons are real entities that inflict harm upon and torment the minds of humans.

Of course they're real, just look at my neices and nephews.  ;D Just kidding. I really do beleive in demons though, just as someone would believe in Angels and Saints, demons are the complete opposite. If you believe in black, you must believe in white...ying & yang, positive & negative, good & bad. In my opinion, that's just how it works....for every action there is an opposite and equal re-action, I know that's a little off course, but it still follows the basic guidelines.

If by demons, you mean poltergeist, then yes I believe. What I don't believe is that demons are little chupacabra like creatures, at least not yet...  ;D

I don't think that chupacabra is a demon either that delves into cryptozology.

Sorry. I don't believe in angels either.  I do believe that humans are not the only creatures on the planet capable of sentience, though.  So, why not other forms of sentience in other realms of being?

The Australian aborigines, the oldest continual culture on the planet (the latest research says they're--wait for it--at least sixty thousand years old!!!) believe that humans and animals occupy two realms, and that some percentage of what we are exists in that other dimension.  (I'm not an expert, but I think this is what the aborigines mean by Dreamtime.) That means, some of the physical creatures (or individuals) you see in this life are like the tips of icebergs, the greater part of them existing in some other dimension.   Of course, it begs the question even to say that other dimension (call it the "spirit realm" if you want) is real.  Accepting for the time being that it is, however, why shouldn't the spirit realm be occupied by all sorts of creatures, or by beings who exist entirely in that dimension, rather than partially . . . the way aborigines claim we do?

Well, at least the mythology helps me to look at the paradox, no?

I think this all centers around your belief structure and your faith, if any.  As for me, being Catholic, and having seen all that I have seen in my lifetime thus far, you bet your booty I believe in Demons...and Angels.

Quote from: Joshua on May 21, 2006, 11:33:31 PM"I think this all centers around your belief structure and your faith, if any."

Fair enough, Joshua.  Different belief systems just put different names to their common phenomena.  (I think the angel/alien comparison is a good example of that.)  If people can look at the mythology of their religions with a more objective eye without necessarily losing their faith, they'd see just how many of the different names given to the spirit phenomena actually resemble one another:  angels, ghosts, genies, spirit ancestors, bogeymen, and so on.  Carl Jung even admitted the archetypal beasts and spirits of the subconscious that take these many different forms and faces might actually have some common basis in reality, albeit an alternate reality. Even the father of psychoanalysis married psychology to his own system of belief!   I was blown away when I read that.

Speaking of demons, it's time for me to go to work.  :'( Talk to you all later!

Karl, what do you do, and what is your education level?  Your posts are some of the most well thought out, well versed, most put together pieces of writing in a paranormal forum that I have ever seen.  I am quite impressed.  Have you been studying the paranormal long, or is it a recent hobby that you have taken up?  What got you motivated to start studying this field?  Please forgive me, I'm just naturally nosey.

Joshua, Karl is a professor at a college down here in San Diego  ;D that explains the very professional structure to his posts.

 :-[ I guess the cat's out of the bag.  Thank you, Joshua, for the props.  I'm an English instructor, just as David says.  My background is  actually in creative writing, but I teach composition, rhetoric and logic quite a lot.  I try to practice what I profess, but I've been known to compose more than my share of convoluted juggernauts.  Thank you for your kind remark, though, and for caring enough to enquire.  I really appreciate that.

I teach a course down here called Views of Death and Dying in Literature, which isn't really the sole reason I'm interested in the paranormal.  It's a pretty popular course, however, and we always delve deeply into the culturally diverse ways in which we express our anxieties about death.  Yes, ghost hunting is more a hobby for me, but I think I'm into it for the soul-searching (literally and figuratively).  Or, it's just my midlife crisis talking.

It's a complex question to answer, Joshua.  In fact, I thought I'd have an easier time answering it than this.  I'd like to think that a staunchly rationale mind could advance the area of parnormal study by giving it an air of credibility--and I know that's what PPI is committed to--but I also realize that the most vocal critics of paranormal investigations are often people who "believe" there is no post-mortal identity, and so begin with the a priori assumption that there can never be convincing, rational evidence to disprove them.  That kind of immovable, dispassionate sort of intelligence just pisses me off; and its sophistry to boot.  If ever there were a subject that called for the clearsighted use of logic to work in tandem with emotional conviction, I think the afterlife is it.

I'll have to wring this one through the ol' noggin a little further, though.  Thanks for the challenging questions, just the same, Joshua.  (And, I don't think it's nosey at all :))  Cheers!

Quote from: Joshua on May 21, 2006, 11:33:31 PM
I think this all centers around your belief structure and your faith, if any.

I think you'd have to have some kind of religon;be it Catholic, Jewish or what have you to belive in demons, because (in my opinion) it would be an omission of a higher power of somer kind.

In my opinion, we are all right. The truth of the matter is this...whether we believe in demons or not, there are hauntings out there that are just evil in nature. We can't explain the reasons either. Spiritual people will label it a demon, scientific people would probably label it psychosis, people that don't have a religion would just call it scary s**t. The truth of the matter is that religion is a huge part of humanity, and an even larger portion of human history. There's so many different religions that I wouldn't know where to begin....so naturally, "demonic" is the most common term used for a haunting with an evil nature. Let me stress that this is just my opinion. Another one of my opinions is...believe in demons or not...there is something out there that is evil, some malicious hauntings can be downright harmful to humans, bites, scratches, slapping, pushing...you name it. That is just what we're faced with...I don't care what people label it, it's real no matter what it's called.

I would agree with that David.  I think it would be safe to assume that just as some people are just plain evil in nature, the same would hold true for spirits, ghost, entities, etc. As you said, some of us label these as "demons".  Wether they are in fact demons remains to be seen.  Just another reason why there are no "experts" in this field.

Quote from: Tony Smith on May 16, 2006, 08:16:48 PM
If by demons, you mean poltergeist, then yes I believe. What I don't believe is that demons are little chupacabra like creatures, at least not yet...? ;D

I felt I should ellaborate more on my short answer --

Do demons exist, I'm not sure. I've never seen one, and personally, I hope I never do.
While researching poltergeist, it seems that demons were intermixed. Both poltergeist and demons seem to share common elements and stereo types. But then there's the stories of demons that hold people down in bed and materialize on their chests. As well as the documented stories regarding females that claim to have had intercourse with demons and/or satan himself.
Just the other night on Coast to Coast, I heard a broadcast regarding demons and the people that were possessed by them. The show zeroed in on the exorcisms and the recordings that were created from some of them. Some of them were questionable, but others were amazingly scary. I would be frightened to find out that there is something so powerful and unknown that it could possess and control another person. The one thing that makes us stand out from all other creatures is our "free will" and control, if you don't have that -- what do you have.

Yes, I do believe that demons are real. Dealt with one in my last home. It was centered around me.  Had it in my home for close to a year.

It was vicious and hateful. It tried in the end to get me to kill myself.

Yep, oh yep, I know they are real

Quote from: Dreamer on August 09, 2006, 02:28:32 PM
Yes, I do believe that demons are real. Dealt with one in my last home. It was centered around me.? Had it in my home for close to a year.

It was vicious and hateful. It tried in the end to get me to kill myself.

Yep, oh yep, I know they are real

Hi Dreamer, welcome to the boards....
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I hope it's solved now...
What made you suspect it was a demon? What are some of the things that happened?
Were you able to get rid of it? How?

Quote from: Tony Smith on August 09, 2006, 03:22:37 PM

Quote from: Dreamer on August 09, 2006, 02:28:32 PM
Yes, I do believe that demons are real. Dealt with one in my last home. It was centered around me.? Had it in my home for close to a year.

It was vicious and hateful. It tried in the end to get me to kill myself.

Yep, oh yep, I know they are real

Hi Dreamer, welcome to the boards....
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I hope it's solved now...
What made you suspect it was a demon? What are some of the things that happened?
Were you able to get rid of it? How?

Thanks for the welcome Tony

Yea, the problem with it was solved.
I used my faith in God and His word, Psalm 91 to get rid of it.

Completely agree with you both. Demons are among us. As are Angels.

My friend Ryan has a mom (Sam) who use to be a nurse. She tells a story about an incident where she was caring for an elderly women who was on her death bed. The women was refusing to eat one day, so Ryan's mom gave up and begin to walk out of the hospital room. As she stood in the doorway she looked back momentarily and the women. She lay in the bed, upright, with her head down- chin touching her chest. In a fast and violent manner, the women's head turned sideways and stared straight at Sam. Sam claims the women had red eyes. She said it was the most frightening thing ever, and she fled- refusing to continue as the nurse caring for the woman. She is convinced to this day that the woman was a demon.

She has also claimed to be in the presence of demons at other times in her life. They were not distinguished by red eyes, but she had this awful, dreadful feeling in her gut that made her sick when she was in their presence. She is a very intuitive woman. (It runs in Ryans family)

Sam is a very religious woman. And cerainly the last person to make up something like this. (She can't stand "nonsense".   :)

Wow, thats a great story. Its got an exorcist feel to it.

I confess, I'm not a big advocate for the concept of demons, mostly because of the way they have been invoked historically to hurt, oppress or kill people unjustly--to villify the simple nonconformist; to excoriate philosophers and scientists; silence outspoken and independent women; warehouse and torture the mentally ill; justify capricious legal punishments; and rationalize whole social agendas against minorities.  In brief, demons are "conjured" as an instruments of propaganda all too often, concealing the real agenda to oppress.  For me, there's something kind of morally lazy about the concept.

However, I do believe it's reasonable to think of a "spirit entity" as the sum of the energies it devotes to its motivations and intentions.  If those motivations are uncivil, inhumane or animalistic, and a spirit is the outward manifestation of its internal reality, then I can certainly understand why people might call it a demon:  if it behaves like a demon, then it must be a demon.

But, traditional demons are assumed to be evil because they act with evil intelligence.  What about spirits that act without intelligence or sentience?  Spirits that are the sum of their amoral and instinctual motivations?  I'm speaking, of course, about animals--the wild ones, and not the more socially evolved ones like dogs, cats and other companion creatures, dolphins, parrots, and so on.  Organic life on this planet has been around for 3.5 billion years.  There are no rules but those written in religious dogma that state humans are the only animal privileged to enjoy a post-mortal existence.  What we ascribe to demons might, in fact, be very old animal intelligences.  Whether merely coincidental or some Jungian expression of our psychology as human beings, the way we imagine demons to look is downright dinosaurian at times.  Look to gargoyles and religious art for examples!  The place you're sitting right now, reading this, was a million years ago occupied by life so hellishly different to what it is now.

I sometimes make the mistake of imagining the afterlife as a dimension made in humankind's own image:  a place where people, and only people, go when they die.  However, it stands to reason that we are animals first, and humans second, no matter how much we rely upon religion or philosophy to make us feel otherwise.  We die because we are animals, and we return to the biosphere in one form or another (with a few exceptions, like Carl Sagan and James Doohan).  Surely there must be as many feral qualities to the afterlife as there are to mortal existence, and some of those spirits are bound to be wild energies, no?  Might it not be possible that our realm of existence overlaps at times with theirs--that one encroaches upon the other sometimes?  In the world of the living, this is called the ecotone:  that frontier zone between two separate ecosystems, one civilized and one wild.  I think at times we wander into the ecotone of the spirit realm, and then panic like villagers who, once they settle beside waters known to fester with crocodiles, discover one of them has acquired a taste for human flesh.

That's why I'm loathe to call them "demons," since "demons" so easily demonizes what might, in fact, be innocent and amoral (albeit at times dangerous).  Perhaps "hostile entity" or "feral entity" are less prejudicial terms for what we don't as yet understand.  Dunno.  Sometimes I feel like we're New World explorers calling the indigenous people "savages."  But, that's just me.  What's your take, y'all?

Sorry Karl, but I tend to believe that there is a type of hell spawn out in the world to harm our immortal souls and sometimes our living bodies. Call them what ever you like but there is (in my opinion) supernatural evil out in the world besides some angry joe that died and has somehow crossed paths with our dimension.

K, I know this post is old as hell, but it touches on a subject near and dear, and since none of you know me from Adam then I figure what a GREAT way to introduce myself, by expressing my thoughts on demons!!

....

lol, anyway.

Honestly, I have a real hard time coming to grips with people's spirits (ghosts) being "stuck" on earth.  My personal belief is that people go somewhere when they die; but I also can't ignore the fact that almost everyone on the planet has had some sort of paranormal experience in their life, so something causes these incidents.  I've had my share, o' course.  My way of explaining it, until better evidence presents itself, is that the spiritual activitey that people are sometimes caught up in is the work of Angels and Demons, and not actual leftover spirits of living people.   Could I be wrong?  Well, yes, I'm wrong all the time  ;D  But it's a theory that I think is feasible; after all, who says the ghosts that people see or hear are actually telling the truth about who they are?   

If I was a demon, it'd be a great way to mess with someone.  And if I was an angel (ha!) it'd be a good way to get a message across to someone without scaring the pants off of them. 

Just a theory of mine.   8)  And one of the many, many reasons I have the irresistable compulsion to poke my nose into the paranormal. 

Quote from: Karl on May 21, 2006, 08:50:11 PM
Sorry. I don't believe in angels either.? I do believe that humans are not the only creatures on the planet capable of sentience, though.? So, why not other forms of sentience in other realms of being?

The Australian aborigines, the oldest continual culture on the planet (the latest research says they're--wait for it--at least sixty thousand years old!!!) believe that humans and animals occupy two realms, and that some percentage of what we are exists in that other dimension.? (I'm not an expert, but I think this is what the aborigines mean by Dreamtime.) That means, some of the physical creatures (or individuals) you see in this life are like the tips of icebergs, the greater part of them existing in some other dimension.? ?Of course, it begs the question even to say that other dimension (call it the "spirit realm" if you want) is real.? Accepting for the time being that it is, however, why shouldn't the spirit realm be occupied by all sorts of creatures, or by beings who exist entirely in that dimension, rather than partially . . . the way aborigines claim we do?

Well, at least the mythology helps me to look at the paradox, no?

I agree, Karl.

I believe there are hostile non-human entities that have been around a lot longer than we have. They choose to interact with us in ways that derive the most severe emotional responses. Why they do so is open to speculation. Various cultures around the world describe them in ways that make sense to their people and their belief system. But it appears to me that there is a common thread in the descriptions of these hostile entities in all cultures. Most people in our culture would label them demons for want of a better term.

I also believe there are positive non-human entities that also choose to interact with us in ways that derive strong emotional responses. Again, their reasons for doing so are open to speculation. Just as all celestial bodies (with very few exceptions) exhibit positively charged and negatively charged magnetic fields, I believe that such polarity exists for everything in the universe. Call them Angels for want of a better term, but if we acknowledge one class of entity, don?t we have to acknowledge the other class as well? After all, for every action in the known universe, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Could these non-human entities be different aspects of the same being? Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle...

Regards,

Brian Miller

Being a born again Christian of 25 years, I definitely believe in God, angels and demons, but here's where I veer off the usual beaten path of born again Christians: I also believe in fairies , gnomes, dwarves, and other nature spirits. I even talk to my roses when I am pruning them.

I believe that if there is a God that is omniscient and omnipresent, that that god would also have to be infinite. I also believe that a God who would make 40,000 different kinds of daylilies would not me limited by what dimensions His creations would live in, nor be limited what kind of Creatures He made. I dunno if that's flawed logic, but it's why I don't necissarily believe a spirit is either good or evil, any more than a cat , or a dog or a bear is good or evil.

Demons, however are, by definition, evil. I am not all knowing, so I am not absolutely certain, but I think they are fallen angels. I also believe that Demons are the reason why believers are admonished to not attempt to comunicate with the dead. You may THINK you are having a chat with dead Uncle Fred, but in fact you are talking with a demon who is impersonating Uncle Fred better than Uncle Fred could impersonate himself. Again, I am not absolutely certain, but I don't think demons , or angels are omnipresent, in that I don't think they are able to be in two places at the same time.

As a Christian, I am involved in "spiritual warfare" and have had a few very enteresting experiences when I have bound spirits in the name of Jesus Christ. What experiences with the supernatural I have had have been in the context of prayer, and prayer teams. One thing I avoid is anything seriously dramatic. I have learned over the years that if I am ecited enough to get an adrenalin rush in a situation I am in trouble. It has also been my experience that what God does seems very "normal" and expected, until you think about it, and other supernatural entites do often seems extrordinary until you examine it and then you discover it is ordinary, or fake. For instance, When I used to take food down to "The Oasis" in Hollywood, a mission focused on feeding and ministering to the homeless, and runaways, I would bring enough food to prepare and serve @ 200, and frequently the tally of people served would exceed 300. While we were busy in the kitchen preparing and serving the food nothing would seem extrordinary, until one of the volunteers, a compulsive bean counter, would do the math and bring it to our attention that we had not brought that much food with us. Almost everyone I know who has worked with feeding the poor and homeless have had similar experiences. On the other hand I automaticly suspect something being foul when there is a dramatic situation. I sort of automaticly go into prayer mode. It might be why I haven't encountered any ghosts.

Renae

- edited to remove gross typos I did not catch the first time I re read what I wrote - now that I KNOW Karl is an English prof I will have to try harder to use more propper English.

Demons are real but not like people think.  I believe that spirits are like people there are good a bad and there just plain evil.
The just plain evil spirits are or where probaly just evil and that why they are.

In my opinion Demons are not real. This is because where I come from I have never heard of Demons. In Scotland we don't hear of cases where there are demons.


Regards,
Allie. 

If there is truth in exorcism, then I believe there are demons.  I also believe that demons are just another name for an entity or something that isn't seen.  With that belief, demons would be both good and evil, similar to how witches are mostly deemed evil although there are good witches out there also.

Of course there is a lot of debate on whether or not demons are real. There will always be some who disagree. I, for one, believe that demons are as real as can be. There is good and there is bad, the ying and the yang, black and white, positive and negative, north and south, up and down....you get the picture.

on another note...you can't have a good disney animated feature without a kick ass villain now can you?

Exactly!

I was the kid who rooted for the villains. Well, at least in Snow White!  My mom took me to a play and there was a scene where Snow White runs around trying to get away from the wicked witch - I got in the aisle and tried to trip her so the witch would get her!  What can I say? Snow White annoys me!

Random story of the day...

It's me again, the awakener of old old posts.  Just wanted to chime in here with my feelings.

I was raised Catholic, but don't totally agree with everything the Church teaches; mainly it's insistence that all other Religions are wrong.  My personal belief is that ALL (well maybe not all, but most,) Religions are right, they just use different stories and names for the same "God" and pantheon.

While Demon may be a Catholic term, I don't restrict them to just the catholic religion, many religions have thier own versions of Demons and Evil Spirits.  Demon just happens to be the most popular term (and easiest to pronounce.)

"Evil" entities exist, I am sure of this.  Yet Karl had an excellent point about defining "evil."  Is a bear Evil when it kills to defend it's cub?  Is a shark in a feeding frenzy evil?  Some entities may be truly evil, others may be acting out of instincts we don't understand.  That doesn't make them any less dangerous.

Old post, but always a debatable subject. Nobody knows the truth, there are no experts; we can only go by experience or own personal beliefs.

My belief and experience is evil exists. If someone can be evil while they are alive (i.e. Manson, Dalmer), why wouldn't that carry over to the "after life". There is good and bad in this world. Though and hard to swallow, it is the obvious truth. Bears killing a person protecting a cub or acting out of the ordinary is not evil. Hilter brain washing millions and killing and torturing millions... now that is evil.

Very good points, guys.

What I find troublesome is when I think about how many "crazy" people may be locked up in asylums.  I'm sure many are crazy, but there "probably" are also those who are either possesed or are being harassed by evil spirits.

Quote from: MichaelF on March 06, 2008, 07:52:36 PM
What I find troublesome is when I think about how many "crazy" people may be locked up in asylums.  I'm sure many are crazy, but there "probably" are also those who are either possesed or are being harassed by evil spirits.

Jen...this is RIGHT up your alley :) Care to grace us with some knowledge?

It's something I'd love to find a way to discern. Yes, I think that 99.9% of mentally ill, are mentally ill. (there aren't any more asylums, by the way and it practically takes an act of God to get someone admitted to a long term care facility)

Every so often, I run into a client ( I work primarily w. the homeless and jailed mentally ill) who I really just have to wonder about. The strongest of meds don't work, ECT ("shock" therapy) has little to no effect ( I know the controversy, but I've seen it work wonders when administered properly)

I have many clients who claim to be plagued by demons - a lot of people w. mental illness see and hear demons, shadows or will tell me they hear a demonic voice saying horrible things to them out of someone else's mouth (typically me, while in a therapy session - it takes a lot of work to get them to trust me enough to tell me when that is happening - but that's another story)

I had one woman who was so completely terrified she tried everything to kill herself to make the torment stop. The last time I saw her, it took 5 of us to keep all 100 lbs of her from jumping out a window. I know the human body can do amazing things, but 5 people struggling to hold back this tiny person? Another was a homeless woman I got called in to talk down from a corner of the CEILING of the shelter. It had to be at least 20ft up w/ nothing to climb that I could see. She just said "the demons put me up here." We had to calm her down enough to let the fire dept. help her down. (she kept growling and striking out at them)

Bad drug trip? Severe illness? You just don't know. I can't exactly turn to my boss and say I'd like to throw holy water at someone I suspect of having something more than a mental illness. It just doesn't fit inot a treatment plan!

I do believe in demons and angels. I do believe that people w. mental illness make a perfect target because at the end of the day - who would believe them?

As usual, excellent insight, Jen.

Very interesting job you have there, Jen. Interesting, challenging and excellent profession. I am sure you see and hear things that the average person will never see or deal with. Do you ever feel like you take the energy home with you? I have heard therapist, psychologists (etc.) sometimes have to meditate before they enter or leave their office so they don't take with them negative energy from patients. Is this true? Have you ever experienced this?

Wow Jen, thanks for the words of experiance.  It always scares me that if I hadn't learned to shut my mouth I could have ended up locked up somewhere.  Your story about the lady found in the corner of the ceiling is extremely wild, I think that would have warrented some Holy Water at the least.

Leslie - Yeah, it took me a long time to learn to "leave it at the door."  Before I got sick, I would go for a very long, very hilly run before going home. Lots of weekend hikes. I also played roller derby - that helped! Now that the tumors -n-bad stuff are gone, I'm determined to get back into running. Nothing cleared my head more.

I'm too much of a wise-ass for meditation. They just started a meditation group for staff  at my clinic - 60 minutes focusing on a raisin..all I could think of was "I heard it through the grapevine." and had to crack jokes the whole way through. Needless to say, I was not helpful in achieving a state of "zen."  ::)

A lot of us will vent w/ each other and that helps. I also have a great supervisor who knows when to give us "time outs" or keep us in the clinic for awhile. When it comes down to it, there are few other jobs that I would rather do.

Taking a side trip, I want to say that I don't really know you Jen, but I am glad that you are feeling better and are over your illness.  Also thank you for the job that you do.  Many "service" oriented jobs are high visiblity, like Police, Firefighters, and the Military; yet jobs like the one you do never get the recognition they deserve and they are just as important.

Aww, thanks!

Does PPI have their own Demonologist?  If so, I have some questions I would like to talk to them about.

Here's an interesting article about Rome's Exorcist talking about discerning between demonic possession and mental illness:

http://www.zenit.org/article-22264?l=english

Good article Brian- thanks.

Last time I checked Brian Johnson was studding this topic. He might be ables to answer any questions.

Yea I have read a lot about it myself, was just wondering if you guys had anybody who actually had any actual experiance with them.

I've read a lot and heard lots of stories of such when I was a young teen, two books really did get my attention as they were about the us humans and how there is a world that we don't know where Angelics fight Demons all the time in protecting human kind. Very much in the frame of the demon legions and angelic hierarchy.  I wish I could remember the two titles, they were really really good reads.

Are demons real?

It depends on who you ask.  A modern neo-pagan who does not believe in "the Devil" might say "not".
Generally, christians will say yes, they are real.
Generally, muslims will say they are real.
An atheist will tell you that they don't exist at all.  An agnostic will say "Maybe".  A Hindu will say that evil spirits are possible.
A Buddhist will probably tell you that no, they are not "real".

If you are asking for personal opinions, you already have four pages of them.  But I am going to go on record and say :
As a rational human being I would like to see evidence.  As an Eastern Orthodox Christian who has had paranormal experiences, I believe that yes, they are real.

Here's your proof!

(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/08/08/hitler460.jpg)

(http://blog.bretagne-balades.org/images/Img1/CharlesManson.jpg)

(http://downwiththeinternet.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/mainbin.jpg)

(http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/j/X/gein.jpg)

Granted, these are not "demons" per say, but they are persuaded by something evil in nature...some may call it "insanity" but that's a sad excuse in my book.

The only "proof" that I can give to non-believers is this.
You do not know everything!
The sad thing is that we can't "prove" anything to anyone who does not believe. The reality is that there is an afterlife and not all dogs go to heaven. I'm not asking anyone else to believe, they'll see for themselves.

Wow, Dave.  You nailed it.

Quote from: PPI Dave on May 20, 2008, 10:36:16 PM
Here's your proof!



Granted, these are not "demons" per say, but they are persuaded by something evil in nature...some may call it "insanity" but that's a sad excuse in my book.

Psychiatrists and indeed, the world at large, are fond of saying that "possessed" people are just misdiagnosed and are mentally ill.  If that is true, then the reverse is equally possible.  Psychiatry is the new religion of the masses.  Psychologists, counselors and psychiatrists are given guru status and what they say is "gospel truth".  I am certainly not saying that they don't serve a valuable function or that they are not needed.  I am saying that they are not gods and we should quit worshipping at their altars. 

QuoteThe only "proof" that I can give to non-believers is this.
You do not know everything!
The sad thing is that we can't "prove" anything to anyone who does not believe. The reality is that there is an afterlife and not all dogs go to heaven. I'm not asking anyone else to believe, they'll see for themselves.

To borrow a phrase from my Protestant friends, "Amen brother".



[/quote]

I disagree Suzannah. There are quite a few mental health professionals -myself included - who believe in demons and the possibility of possession. Possession is an extremely rare occurance. Mental illness, unfortunately, is not. Most religious organizations will require that the mental health of an individual is evaluated during an investigation of an alleged demonic possession. Quite often, the person's suffering is alleviated w. meds and therapy. If it comes down to mental illness or a true possession, the odds are that it will be a mental illness and it is an avenue that any responsible investigator would look at and attempt to rule out.

Psychology, as well as paranormal study are both very inexact sciences w. a whole lot of variables. I think most people on both sides are just trying to do the best that they can to help as many people as they can.

Nice post Jen, what I think makes things even harder is that it's not just black or white either.  It's not like it's your either crazy or your possessed.  Possession normally works by wearing down an individual and breaking down their will to live.  It can possibly even drive somebody crazy or suicidal without actually ever possessing them. 

Then you have the fact that some experiences that some "crazy" people may be having may actually be some type of PSI experience.  It makes one big huge gray area that makes it all very hard to iron out the real truth.  While many mental health professionals may be open minded, I fear that many are not.  For example, as a child when I talked about some stuff, my parents thought something was wrong with me and took me to Dr's and such.  I fear that in todays world, I would have been medicated and such, I think that some prescriptions are given out much to easily to children these days.

Quote from: MichaelF (FPIE) on May 21, 2008, 08:37:38 PM
Nice post Jen, what I think makes things even harder is that it's not just black or white either.  It's not like it's your either crazy or your possessed.  Possession normally works by wearing down an individual and breaking down their will to live.  It can possibly even drive somebody crazy or suicidal without actually ever possessing them. 

Then you have the fact that some experiences that some "crazy" people may be having may actually be some type of PSI experience.  It makes one big huge gray area that makes it all very hard to iron out the real truth.  While many mental health professionals may be open minded, I fear that many are not.  For example, as a child when I talked about some stuff, my parents thought something was wrong with me and took me to Dr's and such.  I fear that in todays world, I would have been medicated and such, I think that some prescriptions are given out much to easily to children these days.

Michael, I agree with you very much here.  You said it much better than I did. 

Quote from: TAPS Jen
I disagree Suzannah. There are quite a few mental health professionals -myself included - who believe in demons and the possibility of possession. Possession is an extremely rare occurance. Mental illness, unfortunately, is not. Most religious organizations will require that the mental health of an individual is evaluated during an investigation of an alleged demonic possession. Quite often, the person's suffering is alleviated w. meds and therapy. If it comes down to mental illness or a true possession, the odds are that it will be a mental illness and it is an avenue that any responsible investigator would look at and attempt to rule out.

Psychology, as well as paranormal study are both very inexact sciences w. a whole lot of variables. I think most people on both sides are just trying to do the best that they can to help as many people as they can.

Jen, forgive me if I did not clarify my position. I actually agree with you but perhaps did not state my position fully.  In today's post modern, materialist world, "possession" does not exist as far as they are concerned and everyone is just "sick". You and professionals like you, are the exception rather than the rule (and God bless you for it, if I may add that as a personal aside.)   If it were not so, possession would be included in the DSM IV.   All I am saying is one is not necessarily exclusive of the other (they can also happen simultaneously in theory) and the polarization by many mental health professionals is a disservice to the victim.  Certainly many, if not most, conditions can alleviated by meds and therapy.  But alleviation does not equal eradication, especially in the extreme rare case of possession.  By the same token, exorcism does not always result in complete "wellness" for the victim and in most cases, takes a very, very long time. 

Additionally, it is my opinion, that popular culture gives guru status to the mental health profession which it does not deserve.  It always strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction to "organized religion".  Humanism, and Psychiatry in particular,  simply does not answer all questions.  I'm sure that my opinion makes for bad ju-ju in mixed professional company, but I am just a rebel I guess.  :P

Quote from: Suzannah on May 21, 2008, 09:47:22 PM

Additionally, it is my opinion, that popular culture gives guru status to the mental health profession which it does not deserve.  It always strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction to "organized religion".  Humanism, and Psychiatry in particular,  simply does not answer all questions.  I'm sure that my opinion makes for bad ju-ju in mixed professional company, but I am just a rebel I guess.  :P

I think the only mental health professionals that are getting "Guru" status, are those idiots on television like Dr. Phil and the like.  You can only give someone "Guru" status if you are LOOKING for a Guru.  Mental Health Professionals that do what Jen does, day in and day out, are the REAL heroes.  These heroes are the unsung ones.  They are the ones that truly care and aren't trying to make a buck off of other people's suffering.  Unless you've been in that profession and walked in hers or anyone else's shoes in that vocation, you have no room to judge.  You can be a rebel all you want, but realize this: No one has all the answers and no one ever will.  Sorry...but MY Juju is in a bunch.  :-\

demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

Quote from: bellalaghoste on May 28, 2008, 07:15:45 PM
demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

VERY well put

Quote from: bellalaghoste on May 28, 2008, 07:15:45 PM
demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

How true.

Quote from: bellalaghoste on May 28, 2008, 07:15:45 PM
demons I think are real sometimes.  But people create there own demons.

Actually that may be more real then you may think.  If individuals can create thoughtforms, apparitions and poltergeist phenomenon with their minds, what happens when groups collectively believe in something.  Does millions or billions of people belieiving in a certain religion actually make it real?  The same could be true of Demons, perhaps we actually "make" them as well.  Kind of a chicken or the egg scenario.

Quote from: MichaelF (FPIE) on May 29, 2008, 02:31:25 AM
Does millions or billions of people belieiving in a certain religion actually make it real?  The same could be true of Demons, perhaps we actually "make" them as well.  Kind of a chicken or the egg scenario.

Look up the Flying Spaghetti Monster or FSMism. At a big convention on religion last year, that topic was actually addressed to much chagrin from other organized religions.

http://www.wired.com/culture/education/news/2007/11/flying_spaghetti_monster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I think demons exist, but there are many different 'flavors' if you will. Some are invited, others force their way in. Some are strong, some are weak. Some are imaginary, but then again, in our imagination, everything is real.

Quote from: rinaslayter on May 31, 2008, 05:03:39 PM

Quote from: MichaelF (FPIE) on May 29, 2008, 02:31:25 AM
Does millions or billions of people belieiving in a certain religion actually make it real?  The same could be true of Demons, perhaps we actually "make" them as well.  Kind of a chicken or the egg scenario.

I think demons exist, but there are many different 'flavors' if you will. Some are invited, others force their way in. Some are strong, some are weak. Some are imaginary, but then again, in our imagination, everything is real.

Yes, perception is reality....

Quote from: rinaslayter on May 31, 2008, 05:03:39 PM

Quote from: MichaelF (FPIE) on May 29, 2008, 02:31:25 AM
Does millions or billions of people belieiving in a certain religion actually make it real?  The same could be true of Demons, perhaps we actually "make" them as well.  Kind of a chicken or the egg scenario.

Look up the Flying Spaghetti Monster or FSMism. At a big convention on religion last year, that topic was actually addressed to much chagrin from other organized religions.

http://www.wired.com/culture/education/news/2007/11/flying_spaghetti_monster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I think demons exist, but there are many different 'flavors' if you will. Some are invited, others force their way in. Some are strong, some are weak. Some are imaginary, but then again, in our imagination, everything is real.

While Pastafarianism is funny as heck, it's really more of a mockery of Religious design then an attempt to actually create the FSM due to having believers.  If reality were actually shaped in some fasion by belief, I think you would actually have believe not jsut pretend to do so.  Good links though thanks.

Quote from: Tracy on May 22, 2008, 11:13:02 AM


I think the only mental health professionals that are getting "Guru" status, are those idiots on television like Dr. Phil and the like.  You can only give someone "Guru" status if you are LOOKING for a Guru.  Mental Health Professionals that do what Jen does, day in and day out, are the REAL heroes.  These heroes are the unsung ones.  They are the ones that truly care and aren't trying to make a buck off of other people's suffering.  Unless you've been in that profession and walked in hers or anyone else's shoes in that vocation, you have no room to judge.  You can be a rebel all you want, but realize this: No one has all the answers and no one ever will.  Sorry...but MY Juju is in a bunch.  :-\

I've been out of town and so just now catching up.  Tracy, I think you have entirely misread my original post to Jen.  I complimented her on her views and acknowledged her professionalism and compassion. 

I don't apologize however, for disturbing sacred cows, which is what this field of endeavor is all about.  Additionally, if my use of English is flawed and you have failed to understand me, then I chalk this up to the fact that my first languages are Greek and Arabic.  But I certainly am trying to use English in a respectful and thoughtful way in order to communicate with you.  If this forum does not allow for respectful disagreement with PPI members, which I believe I have shown, then I will certainly take it off my list of interesting discussions. 

Quote from: Suzannah on June 03, 2008, 05:42:09 PM

Quote from: Tracy on May 22, 2008, 11:13:02 AM


I think the only mental health professionals that are getting "Guru" status, are those idiots on television like Dr. Phil and the like.  You can only give someone "Guru" status if you are LOOKING for a Guru.  Mental Health Professionals that do what Jen does, day in and day out, are the REAL heroes.  These heroes are the unsung ones.  They are the ones that truly care and aren't trying to make a buck off of other people's suffering.  Unless you've been in that profession and walked in hers or anyone else's shoes in that vocation, you have no room to judge.  You can be a rebel all you want, but realize this: No one has all the answers and no one ever will.  Sorry...but MY Juju is in a bunch.  :-\

I've been out of town and so just now catching up.  Tracy, I think you have entirely misread my original post to Jen.  I complimented her on her views and acknowledged her professionalism and compassion. 

I don't apologize however, for disturbing sacred cows, which is what this field of endeavor is all about.  Additionally, if my use of English is flawed and you have failed to understand me, then I chalk this up to the fact that my first languages are Greek and Arabic.  But I certainly am trying to use English in a respectful and thoughtful way in order to communicate with you.  If this forum does not allow for respectful disagreement with PPI members, which I believe I have shown, then I will certainly take it off my list of interesting discussions. 

Suzannah,
I don't think I misread anything. Neither did Jen.  Jen is a good friend of mine and a fellow investigator on my team.  We are both with TAPS and no longer w/ PPI, although we still consider PPI investigators our second family.  I don't have an issue with you...um...disturbing sacred cows.  I think you should take that up with someone else.  But, be that as it may, we DO allow for respectful disagreement.  No one is at war here with anyone else.  However, to get respectful disagreement, you have to give it as well.  Jen gives her heart and soul to what she does every single day.  Her clients are the people that society sees only as "throw aways".  She was hurt by your words and I was hurt for her.  You see, I am a former social worker.  For 12 years, I worked with abused children, battered women and the mentally ill.  So I suppose when I read your post, a little bit of emotion was sparked in me.  PPI is a wonderful site with wonderful and knowledgeable people. We do have interesting discussions.  We also give each other room to disagree.  We can do this with respect.  A difference of opinion is fine and it is also healthy.  We learn so much from each other.  However, we have to realize that while stating our opinions is fine, we also have to marry it with respect and kindness as well.

Ricky: "Well, with all due respect, Mr. Dennit, I had no idea you'd gotten experimental surgery to have your balls removed."
Larry Dennit, Jr: "What did you-- What did you say? What was that?"
Ricky: "Well, what? I said 'With all due respect.'"
Larry Dennit, Jr: "That doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want to say to me."
Ricky: "I sure as heck does."
Larry Dennit, Jr: "No, no, it doesn't mean that."
Ricky: "It's in the Geneva Convention. Look it up."

Light vs. Dark?Good vs. Evil. I think common sense is you can not have one with out another. I grew up in a home where I saw dark shapeless shadows that seemed to move with the intent to block my path of travel. I also saw pure white silhouettes of a person standing in the hallways of the house. I lived with my grandmother who used to frequent fortune tellers and tarot card readers. She also met with a fortune teller that would basically comb her hair in a fashion to divide her scalp in to four quadrants and read her future?kinda weird. Well recently, like today, I dove onto the web finding some references that possibly dabbling into these sooth-sayers could invite demonic harassment. One site even alluded to a lady that ended up being diagnosed with multiple personality disorder (MPD) after having sessions with a psychic and a crystal ball and starting to experience demonic harassment. I also find that interesting due to the fact my grandmother eventually developed severe Alzheimers/dementia. Further the day after my grandmother?s passing I never experienced a single event in the house ever again. I lean toward the possibility of the white figure being a good or light spirit trying to balance the other. Now nothing physical ever happened to me, but maybe scaring the crap out of a 10 year old is enough harassment for a demon.   

Hey Don,
Nice to see you on the boards.
I wonder if the thing you saw was a being that feed on emotions.
Being a kid with no real understanding of what you were confronting.
Fear would be an emotion that could be generated quite easy.
I always think about an old Star Trek episode where Kirk had one on his ship.
That creature feed on anger and rage.

True possibility, the constant state of fear I was in would probably be enough to keep whatever this was going. But I still have no real guess to nail down the absence of the "thing" after the passing of my grandmother.

I think it might have been a Thoughtform that your grandmother created.

I did some net surfing on thoughtforms seems reasonable thanks

I think alot of what we will investigate will be thoughtform related.

Quote from: johnny on June 03, 2008, 09:12:06 PM



Ricky: "Well, with all due respect, Mr. Dennit, I had no idea you'd gotten experimental surgery to have your balls removed."
Larry Dennit, Jr: "What did you-- What did you say? What was that?"
Ricky: "Well, what? I said 'With all due respect.'"
Larry Dennit, Jr: "That doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want to say to me."
Ricky: "I sure as heck does."
Larry Dennit, Jr: "No, no, it doesn't mean that."
Ricky: "It's in the Geneva Convention. Look it up."

In the south, the expression is: "Bless his/her heart, but..." That gives you free reign to say anything.  ;D